Courtesy Circle Meeting:
The 5th of May


[Being an edited transcript of that event.]

The Lecture Hall: a place for gathering many people for
presentations or group discussions.

Punzel introduces herself, "For those whom I have not met
before, I am sera Viola, also called Punzel. I am the Guild
Mistress of the Courtesy Circle."

Punzel smiles welcomingly.

Punzel smiles warmly, "I have some materials prepared on the
subject of courtesy toward those who are superior in rank."

Punzel begins, "First, I wanted to talk about what we mean when
we mention people who are above us in station. Those who have
free access to the Inner Bailey clearly have higher rank and
favor in the eyes of Her Majesty and the Court."

Punzel explains, "I have prepared some materials, based on the
Capitulary, on Dame Oriana's advice, and on Mistress Ermengarde's
advice, which I thought to present before we talk freely."

Punzel suggests, "If anyone has questions while I'm talking, I
think raising of hands would be all right, unless you think the
question can wait until the open discussion."

Punzel explains, "The hierarchy of rank and station as I roughly
understand it progresses from commonfolk to Her Majesty's
Honored Guests to resident courtiers to knights to nobility to
royalty. Most of us in the Outer Bailey are commonfolk."

Punzel adds, "Those who are of higher station have earned their
rank in the eyes of the Court. Therefore, if we show disrespect,
we are disrespecting not only the good they have done to attain
that position, but also the judgment of Her Majesty."

Punzel shakes her head, "As respect is a significant part of
courtesy, I think this is not courteous."

Punzel continues, "When encountering someone of higher rank,
we should bow or curtsy before they do, if possible, and use their
correct title when we speak to them. No one should refer to the
Lord Chamberlain, for example, as 'ser'."

Punzel adds ruefully, "Unless they are specifically intending to
slight him."

Punzel adds, "Which would not be courteous, in any case."
Punzel smiles.

Punzel continues, "Some people of higher rank have offices in the
Outer Bailey, such as Lord Chamberlain Launfal, Mistress
Ermengarde, and Master Quilp. We should not treat their offices
as casually as we treat public rooms."

Punzel suggests, "The courtesy that I personally follow is that
if their doors are closed, I do not knock. I instead send them a
scroll, or wait for the door to open. I assume that they close their
doors for a reason, because they wish privacy, and I respect that."

Punzel adds, "If the door to Mistress Ermengarde's workroom or
the Lord Chamberlain's office is open, I assume this is because
they currently welcome visitors, and I enter freely. If I learn
that my assumption was incorrect, I respectfully leave again."

Punzel says, "The Capitulary clearly forbids interfering with Her
Majesty's servants in the performance of their duty, and disrespectful
treatment of Master Quilp or Mistress Ermengarde might therefore
be not only rude but illegal."

Punzel continues, "If we wish to request something from someone
of superior rank -- such as Lord Chamberlain Launfal or Master
Quilp -- and they advise us that our request is inappropriate, we
should accept their advice gratefully, and not argue with them."

Punzel suggests, "They know far more than we about what is
appropriate in this place, regardless of what our memories may
tell us from our pasts."

Punzel adds, "The Capitulary indicates that those of knightly
rank and higher might even call commoners to Court for
insulting them. I believe this shows Her Majesty's preference
that we treat those of rank with humble respect."

Punzel continues, "Dame Oriana's etiquette guidelines indicate
that it is considered poor manners to carry numerous items in
our arms when seeking conference with our social betters, which
would of course include visits to Lord Chamberlain Launfal's
office hours."

Punzel says, "Dame Oriana's guidelines also point out that the
sumptuary laws are intended to prevent us from aping our betters,
and Mistress Ermengarde's advice has supported this idea that
we should wear clothes appropriate to our rank and station."

Punzel clarifies, "Those of us who have no rank in the eyes of the
Court, regardless of whether we lead guilds or have been awakened
longer than others, should dress humbly and respectfully."

Punzel continues, "Lastly, on the topic of swords and swordplay,
the Capitulary clearly forbids commonfolk from drawing a weapon
against a knight or noble, though properly conducted duels --
sanctioned or not -- are not illegal."

Punzel smiles gently, "I believe that the laws stated in the
Capitulary, the etiquette advice offered by Dame Oriana, and
the clothing advice offered by Mistress Ermengarde all show
that the Court expects us to show deference to those of higher
station."

Punzel concludes, "There are many ways to honor Her Majesty, but
a courteous humility toward those who have Her favor is an
important and necessary part of that. Those are my notes from
my research. Now I would like to open the conversation to
questions and thoughts."

Darrieux tells Punzel, "May I wear silver or gold, Sera?"
Darrieux tells Punzel, "Or is it illegal?"

Punzel nods, "I believe only nobility may wear cloth of silver or
gold, but jewelry is not illegal."

Punzel gestures to her set of silver earrings.

Deirdre says, "I believe part of courtesy is treating others
how they wish to be treated. In the case of Master Quilp, he
has declared quite bluntly that he eschews normal politeness.
Where do you draw the line in returning his candid behavior?"

Punzel shakes her head, "I believe that is the prerogative of
one of higher rank. Those of lower rank should still behave
with appropriate etiquette, in myopinion."

Punzel asks, "Do other folk have other opinions?"

Punzel glances at Grafften, Constantine, Edanya, Muskle,
Cassandra, Destini, Zenaida, Deirdre, Darrieux, Kyle and Anabeth.

Kyle smiles, "Well, I think that respect comes from the heart,
so if you respect somebody you should treat them as they would
like to be treated."

Punzel nods to Kyle, "Indeed. So if you wish to be treated well
by Master Quilp, then you should treat him well."

Destini asks, "when addressing Master Quilp or Misstress
Ermengarde, if ser and sera are not used, how do you address them?"

Punzel explains to Destini, "I believe in my experience they
prefer to be called by their names. Mistress Ermengarde seems
to appreciate either 'Mistress' or 'Mistress Ermengarde'."

Punzel smiles at Destini, "If in doubt, you might ask them."

Constantine says, "It is clear by the Queens law and common
sense both that, if master Quilp wished to be rude to a commoner,
he may do so. But how far does this extend? Can one of Master
rank antagonize an hounoured guest, such as ser Martel, just as freely?"

Punzel nods to Constantine, "I believe so. Master Quilp and
Mistress Ermengarde have quarters in the Inner Bailey, and so I
would assume are of higher rank. But I must admit I am not certain."

Punzel adds, "And antagonizing Martel will simply get one into a duel."
Punzel smiles ruefully.

Punzel suggests to Constantine, "The Lord Chamberlain might know
more. You may wish to ask him."

Darrieux asks Punzel, "Sera, if Master Quilp claims he may use his
sword against one of us, what should we do? He may threat us
without further explanations..."

Punzel nods to Darrieux, "I believe he has the right to challenge
anyone to a duel. If he strikes you with a sword outside of a
duel, then that is illegal and you should seek the Watch."

Constantine says, "What should we do, do you think, to regain
Master Quilps favour to the Outer bailey, that he might offer
us his services once again?"

Punzel admits, "I have only met him quite briefly, and do not
know him well."

Trusken says, "leave the cruel sour ol'dwarf alone..."
Anabeth glances at Trusken.
Anabeth frowns slightly.

Punzel frowns slightly at Trusken, "We raise hands here when we
wish to speak, ser."

Darrieux smiles to Trusken, "Agree..."
Trusken mumbles, "sorry"
Darrieux nods silently.

Kyle mentions, "I dont see him refuseing service to the 'outer
baily' as a problem... who here has right to his service whome
weilds no influence in the inner baily, enough to ask the favor
for him/her?"

Constantine says, "May I respond?"

Punzel nods agreeingly, "Indeed. It is only those with Her
Majesty's favor who have the right to wear swords."

Kyle gestures, "He makes swords. They are illegal."

Punzel shakes her head, "They are illegal for those who have not
permission to bear them, but not illegal in general."

Constantine glances at Punzel hopefully.
Punzel nods to Constantine, "Certainly you may respond, ser."

Constantine says, "Master Quilp is a master blacksmith and, I
believe, carpenter. His skill extends to many items, besides
swords, even if that is what the average newly desires."

Constantine says, "Mistress Emergard, mistress zia, and, until
recently Master Quilp offerd us their services as a courtesy
and afavour."

Punzel nods agreeingly, "Indeed. But I would suggest, since he
has requested to be left alone, that we honor that request.
Mayhap he will change his mind in future."

Punzel adds, "If folk behave respectfully and do not continue to
badger him."

Constantine says, "Actions of several guests lost that favour,
causing that courtesy to be removed. I simply wondered if
their might be some way to make amends"

Deirdre gestures, "I merely wished to point out, as ser Constantine
said, that Master Quilp does much more than make weapons"

Trusken says, "about the Quilp situation, Quilp is a bitter man,
he has no interest in making friends and I doubt that he has any
will or feels any obligation to forgive us and serve us again..."

Punzel suggests to Trusken, "Will this touch on courtesy?"
Cassandra murmurs, "Bitter? more put upon then that!"

Trusken says, "quite frankly im suprised he served us in the
first place."

Punzel suggests to Trusken, "If not, it might be more appropriate
for discussion after the meeting."

Constantine reminds Trusken, "He _has_ no obligation, ser."
Edanya shuts her pair of sensual lips firmly.
Punzel explains, "We are a Courtesy Circle, and not a gossip circle."
Watchman Jarrod gazes at Trusken oddly.
Punzel sighs patiently.

Trusken says, "but what im saying is we should not even bother
with him."

Anabeth asks Punzel, " for example, How should I explain to a
newly awakened on how to properly address an Honored Guest?"

Anabeth comments, " it is much easier in regards to the
Mistress Ermengarde as she has a proper title"

Punzel nods to Anabeth, "Well, I think that those who have status as
Honored Guests are of significantly lesser rank than those with titles ..."

Anabeth nods agreeingly, " but how do we designate them as a
higher rank than we common folk"

Trusken says, "you give them tittles..."
Watchman Jarrod nods thoughtfully to Anabeth.

Watchman Jarrod tells Trusken, "The Honored Guests do not have
titles, ser"

Punzel admits, "My impression is that those of Honored Guest
status are not of significantly higher rank than other Outer
Bailey residents ..."

Punzel continues, "Honored Guests may wear clothing of finer
fabric and such ... that is one way to identify them. But are you
asking how to suggest that they be identified, or how to treat them?"

Anabeth says to Punzel, " well both really....how to tell others
how to treat them"

Punzel smiles mischievously, "I must admit that I treat Martel
with little respect. I wonder if such will lose me favor."

Punzel suggests, "I think that the only way to suggest that folk
know who is an Honored Guest is by reading the postings ..."

Punzel adds, "Especially since so many newly awakened walk about
in overdresses. ..."

Punzel adds, "And I would think that an appropriate show of
respect would simply be bowing or curtsying first, and showing
the same courtesy ... well ... that I would expect to be shown
to anyone."

Trusken says, " why may I ask is it that some recieve the
tittle of honored guest.. yes I understand they have her
majesty's favor but..."

Trusken says, "well what is to distinguish them from us in any
way?..."

Punzel explains to Trusken, "Her Majesty Queen Vivienne welcomes
some few members of the Outer Bailey to enter the Inner Bailey
at their whim. She chooses them according to Her favor."

Punzel adds, "Those who are so welcomed are called Honored Guests."

Gareth says, "Aye... One thing for all to note... and I have
used this to good results ... is to treat all with deference at
first, introduce oneself, and ask to be introduced in turn."

Gareth says, "As well, especially for sers, please consider
whether they wear a blade...."

Punzel raises her thin eyebrow.
Punzel murmurs to herself, "Especially for sers?"
Punzel eyes Gareth.

Gareth says, "...Honored Guests are entitled to such, and I
have oft spotted someone from the Inner Bailey who wear such."

Edanya smirks.

Gareth says, "I have yet to meet many seras from the Inner
Bailey, and I mean no offense... But Mistresses I have met have
not been of martial nature."

Punzel smiles at Gareth, "Mayhap someday you will be lucky enough
to meet Calla Dane or sera Catharsis, then."

Edanya asks, "What of Armswoman Carey and Calla Dane?"

Gareth says, "The only one I had was a Sera Yseult, who wore a
blade, and --- little else."

Cassandra explains to Trusken, "Those who have been given the
designation Honored Guest have usually done something of merit"

Trusken says, "yes but should we treat them any differently?"

Punzel suggests to Trusken, "That has been the point of this
entire meeting, ser. Mayhap you might read the notes afterward."

Cassandra says, "Are we moving onto a different group at this
point? I wished to enquire about some such as First Initiate
Elea or First Acolyte Charmiam"

Punzel nods slowly, "I am not certain where they fit in the
hierarchy of rank and station. You may wish to ask them
directly, or the Lord Chamberlain."

Punzel suggests, "I, too, will ask. If I learn, I shall make the
information public for the use of all."

Constantine says, "What about members of the watch? How do
thier ranks apply to the caslte as a whole? It is obvious that the
Corporal should be granted additional respect, but how does the
Armsman or the Watchmen compare to civilian guests in rank?"

Punzel explains to Constantine, "My understanding is that the
Winter Watch are no higher in rank than commonfolk, unless they
are welcomed in the Inner Bailey."

Punzel adds, "That does not change the fact that they are due
respect for upholding the law, of course."

Gareth says, "My apologies again for my tardiness, and mayhaps
it hath been answered already, but there is a Law which states
that it is punishable to disregard an order of a person in a superior
position. I had but wondered what specifically this meant... Are
Knights allowed to order denizens to obey their commands?"

Gareth asks, "Or in what way are we subinfeudated to determine
who is required to follow the orders of another? I myself would
be willing to obey the Lord Chamberlain and the Lord Chancellor....
But what of the Masters and Mistresses?"

Gareth asks, "Would their apprentices need to obey such orders?"

Punzel explains, "According to Corporal Philo's interpretation of
that law, as posted on the noticeboard in this room, that refers only
to those who are specifically superior to each other ..."

Punzel adds, "Such as the Assistant Chronicler and Junior
Chronicler, I would imagine."

Punzel nods, "And probably the apprentice tailors and seamstresses,
to Mistress Ermengarde."

Punzel admits, "But I am not certain. I believe it is Corporal
Philo who determines the interpretation of such laws."

Watchman Jarrod asks Punzel, "At what point do we move beyond
ranks within groups, such as the Watch or the Tailors? By that
definition, we have no obligation to obey an order by Her Majesty..."

Watchman Jarrod frowns, "And that cannot be right."

Punzel suggests to Watchman Jarrod, "I would raise that issue
with Corporal Philo. It seems more a matter of law than courtesy."

Punzel smiles ruefully, "I am ill-equipped to answer such questions.
Dame Oriana wrote little on that."

Watchman Jarrod says, "If a Lord orders a common ser to do
something, should he not obey? But would it be for Favour or
because of the law?"

Punzel requests, "Watchman, if you do learn more, could you
please share it with us? It would be good to have such issues clarified."

Cassandra says, "I think as a matter of courtesy, if a person
of Rank asks one to do something, one should comply willingly....."

Cassandra adds, "provided it is not illegal"

Punzel nods agreeingly, "Within reason. If a Lord asked me to
leave Martel, I would politely decline."

Punzel adds, "Even though it would be legal."

Watchman Jarrod nods agreeingly to Cassandra, "Aye, but not
because of a law, it seems."

Cassandra ponders, "Would a lord be likely to do such a thing?"

Punzel smiles ruefully, "If they asked me to wear orange, I would
say it was none of their business. But if they asked me to do
something reasonable that my honor did not forbid, then certainly."

Punzel admits, "I think that we know little of the nobility, and
thus cannot make global pronouncements."

Watchman Jarrod tells Cassandra, "Their whims are unknown to
us, sera."

Cassandra nods, "And their reasons"
Punzel nods agreeingly.

Punzel suggests, "If there are no further comments or questions,
we might end the meeting."

Punzel nods, "I will post the results of this meeting to the
noticeboard, so that all who are interested might read them."

[Lots of smiling.]

Punzel smiles warmly, "Thank you all for coming, and for
participating and offering your thoughts."

Punzel suggests, "Any who have ideas for future topics to
discuss, please feel free to send me a scroll."

[Lots of curtsying and departing.]

Punzel curtsies gracefully, "Good eve, everyone."



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