Courtesy Circle Meeting:
The 10th of February


[Being an edited transcript of that event.]

The Lecture Hall: a place for gathering many people for
presentations or group discussions.

Punzel suggests, "We shall wait a few moments, in case others are
running late. But that does not mean we cannot talk. Mayhap
those who are here might speak a bit of what they hope to get
from such a guild as this?"

Punzel smiles encouragingly, "Any thoughts?"
Morte says, "Aye. quite a few."
Morte smiles softly.
Punzel gestures to Morte, "Please, ser. Go ahead."
Punzel sits down on a simple table.

Morte says, "I hope to encourage the growth of courtacy in the
outerbailey, as Courtacy is the foundations of respect.."

Morte says, "And respect is the foundation of honor.."
Morte says, "And I see much preaching on honor.."

Morte says, "And so very little upon the foundations
thereoff.."

Morte says, "One cannot be honorable, and lack in courtacy.."

Morte says, "And so, I hope to add my input to this group, and
thereby, strenghten the honor of the castle as a whole."

Punzel nods agreeingly to Morte, "Aye, ser. I agree with that
analysis. I believe courtesy is an integral part of honor."

Punzel asks, "Others with thoughts on what they might hope to
accomplish through involvement in this guild?"

Kiera smiles slightly, "I believe Ser Morte has expressed most
of my thougths as well. Although I also wish to learn for
myself"

[Many folks arrive. Much bowing and curtsying and greeings.]

Punzel asks, "Shall we start, now?"
[Everyone listens.]

Punzel smiles, "As most of you are no doubt aware, the charter
for this guild has been approved, and publicly posted."

[Lots of people nod happily.]

Punzel says, "I wondered if any might have questions or comments
on the charter, if you have had a chance to read it."

Punzel glances at Illiana, Anabeth, Drusilla, Robert, Faith, Cassandra,
Morte, Mintle and Kiera.

Morte raises his hand.
Punzel nods to Morte, "Aye, ser?"

Morte nods respectfully, "Artical two of the statement of purpose."

Morte recites, "2. The Courtesy Circle will endeavor to help
prepare gentlefolk for appropriate behavior in the Inner
Bailey, should they ever be so honored as to be invited
therein, resulting in both greater comfort for the Outer Bailey
folk and less disruption to Her Majesty and Her Court upon the
issuance of such invitations. "

Punzel nods, "Aye?"

Morte asks, "How can we do this, if noone of us seems to know
that etiquette beforehand?"

Morte says, "That is, aside from the postings in the public forums.."

Punzel smiles understandingly, "In my conversations with the Lord
Chamberlain, he has indicated that he is willing to offer me
guidance ... that we can ..."

Punzel gestures vaguely, "We can talk amongst ourselves, for the
Inner Bailey does not have the time or inclination to guide our every
move ... but that he will advise me on the matters we discuss, as well."

Morte nods.
Morte says, "Thank you, Mistress."

Punzel explains, "In fact, I believe that general good courtesy,
rather than appropriate etiquette, can be somewhat agreed upon
without even his guidance."

Punzel blinks.
Punzel requests, "And, please, not so much respect. We are all equals here."

Anabeth suggests, " Perhaps in the distant future,we could have a
guest lecturer from the Inner Baily, I do recall the Lady Berthe holding
conversation then on courtesy at such a function"

Punzel raises her thin eyebrow, "Lady Berthe?"
Punzel smiles slightly.
Robert nods.
Kiera nods.
Illiana chuckles, "Though I do not recall it a conversation, as such."
Anabeth smiles kindly at Illiana.
Anabeth nods to Illiana.

Punzel nods to Anabeth, "Aye. I do believe that guest speakers
from the Inner Bailey would be a wonderful addition ... though
... Lady Berthe would not be my choice, I must admit."

Punzel smiles ruefully.
Illiana nods agreeingly.
Kiera smiles amusedly.
Anabeth nods to you, "It was off the top of my head sera."
Robert smiles amusedly.
Punzel nods to Anabeth, "Aye. And it is an excellent suggestion."
Punzel smiles at Anabeth, "Thank you!"
Anabeth smiles at you, " You're welcome."

Punzel nods, "I will mention it to the Lord Chamberlain when next
I speak with him."

Punzel asks, "Other questions or comments on the charter?"
[Everyone shakes their heads.]

Punzel nods slowly, "Well, then, on to the second order of
business. Membership."

[Kissa and Gruth arrive.]

Punzel continues, "In the future, membership will be a more
formal process ... but with this first round of members, I
think we can be less formal."

Gruth bows to Kissa, Illiana, Anabeth, Drusilla, Robert,
Faith, Cassandra, you, Morte, Mintle and Kiera.

Punzel says, "All those who have read the charter, and who wish
to become members today ... I am willing to consider official members."

[Lots of people smile.]

Punzel asks, "Could all those who would like to be members please
raise their hands?"

[Membership rings are distributed to and worn by Cassandra, Drusilla,
Anabeth, Mintle, Morte, Kissa, Faith, Robert, Illiana, Kiera, Gruth,
Ravelyn, and Myrth.]

[Much smiling and offers of thanks.]

Punzel beams happily at the lecture hall, "Welcome to the
Courtesy Circle, my fellow members."

[Folks smile and applaud.]

[Some various business of copies of the charter being handed to
new folks, with much help from Morte.]

Punzel suggests smilingly, "Shall we actually begin to talk about
courtesy, and not only extend it to each other?"

Punzel begins, "I hoped to discuss today courtesy in courtship
... and also mayhap courtesy in dueling. These are the two topics
folk have asked me for the most often."

[Lots of people nod.]

Morte asks, "When you say courtasy in dueling, do you mean a
formal duel, or perhaps mearly practice?"

Ravelyn murmurs, "Both I should think."

Morte says, "As both have compleatly seperate forms and fuctions"
Darcient arrives through the west door.

Punzel explains, "I believe that in practice spars, one should
behave as one would in a true duel. For courtesy and respect
are not only for special occasions."

Punzel nods to Morte, "Aye, but one should practice courtesy even
in one's own chambers."

Punzel asks, "Why not in sparring?"

Morte says, "I would point out, Sera, that that in a formal
duel, the two combants do not speak.."

Morte says, "And only the seconds communicate."

Punzel admits, "That has not been true in my own experience."

Morte says, "And as such, behaving like so in practice, would
be a problem. "

Punzel says, "In my duel, both parties spoke."

Morte says, "Then it was not a formal duel, I would be forced to admit.. "
Morte says, "Sanctioned, perhaps, but not formal."
Morte nods respectfully.

Punzel smiles at Morte, "The Lord Chamberlain believed otherwise.
But if you feel you are wiser than he, you may believe so."

Punzel asks, "What do others think of this? I will certainly ask
the Lord Chamberlain what the official view is, but I would be
interested to hear opinions other than ser Morte's."

Punzel smiles at Darcient, Kissa, Gruth, Ravelyn, Myrth, Illiana,
Anabeth, Drusilla, Robert, Faith, Cassandra, Morte, Mintle and Kiera.

Cassandra murmurs softly, "I know so little of duels and their etiquette."

Kiera asks quietly, "Perhaps tis a distinction that should be
made..does a formal duel need to be sanctioned? And are all
sanctioned duels formal? What makes them formal?"

Kiera says apologetically, "Tis not something I have ever heard
discussed here "

Morte says, "In my experiance with duels.."
Morte says, "And rest assured, I have such, "

Morte says, "A formal duel is not always sanctioned.. tis merely
two gentlemen settling thier dispute in the honorable fashion."

Morte says, "Oftimes, sanction takes too long to sate the
passions of both men."

Morte says, "To be formal, the rituals of the duel must be
observed, as in the case of seconds, and no less than 24 hours
of mediation time."

Morte says, "An honorable attempt at peace must be made by the
seconds."

Morte says, "This is the formal duel."

Anabeth says thoughtfully, "The word formal to me implies that
all parties agree to follow a set of said rules."

Morte says, "Sanction, on the other hand, is merely offical
recignition of the duel.."

Anabeth nods to Morte, "Good observation ser."

Morte says, "And the knowledge that no legal ill will befall the
winner, such as charges of murder."

Morte says, "A duel need not be formal, or sanctioned."

Morte says, "But to be formal, is not to require sanction.. and
to be sanctioned, is not to require formality."

Morte says, "But to be gentleman in sooth, is to require both."
Morte nods respectfully.

Robert asks Morte curiously, "So what you are saying is that
there are four types of duels?"

Morte says, "I would have to say, yes."

Morte says, "The Formal sanctioned, the sanction but not
formal, the formal but not sanctioned, and the vulgar."

Cassandra says hesitantly, "Then the practice duels... they are
informal?"

Morte says, "The practice duel is a misleading name.."
Morte says, "For it is not a duel."

Morte says, "It is a sparring, a meeting of combatants for the
express purpose of raising collective skill.."

Robert nods to Morte, "Exactly"
Morte says, "A duel is matter of honor."
Darcient adds, "And a practice is but a method of toning one's skills..."
Morte nods to Darcient, "Indeed."

Kiera says, "I think it is certainly possible to have a sanctioned duel that
is not formal ...if by formal we agree on the terms Ser Morte put forth. "

Kiera explains, "Seconds speaking only, etc"
Kiera says, "It all depends on the definitions."

Darcient says, "I must agree with ser Morte on the unsanctioned
formal duel ..."

Darcient says, "As some duels are trite, and have private
honors at stake, and need not be recognized by the court"

Punzel advises Darcient gently, "Unsanctioned duels with live
blades are much frowned upon by the Court, ser. Just so that
you are aware."

Darcient nods, "I am so aware, though if the battle is not to the death,
I see no wrong in it if both parties agree it is something to be settled
privately with blades"

Illiana says, "Since it seems we are a bit, taken, with this idea of there
existing four types of duels, perhaps we should think about it this week,
and come prepared at the next meeting with our ideas of courtesy for
each, and the practice spar as well."

Punzel nods agreeingly to Illiana, "I was just about to suggest
that we table this discussion, so that we may alert folk in advance ..."

Punzel admits, "I believe that more members of the sword guilds
might wish to attend, if they knew we would be discussing this."

[Lots of people nod.]

Anabeth says softly, " I was going to suggest , in accordance with what
you are saying to invite them to a meeting specifically on this particular topic"

Punzel suggests, "I will post what we have discussed here, and
inform others that we shall discuss it more next week."

Robert says, "I just thought that we are to have a future resident of the
Inner Bailey that might be interested indeed in this topic: Dame Catharsis"

Punzel nods agreeingly, "Aye, indeed. And she has expressed
interest in our Circle. I will contact her."

Punzel suggests, "If folk would like to talk a while on courtesy
in courtship, we may do so. Though I know you have been here a
bell already, and am willing to follow your wishes."

Punzel glances at Anabeth, Zakhovec, Sylph, Cassandra, Darcient, Kissa,
Gruth, Myrth, Illiana, Drusilla, Robert, Faith, Morte, Mintle and Kiera.

Punzel shrugs, "I am willing to talk more, if others are
amenable. Does anyone have thoughts on the topic of courtesy in
courship? Either the stages of courtship, or otehr thoughts."

Punzel explains, "Many folk have asked me what it means to agree
to court ... what are folk's thoughts?"

The wooden doll Mintle is holding squeaks, "Would you be willing
to define the stages of courtship, that we may all be in agreement of
what we speak?"

Punzel smiles ruefully, "I have been discussing that question with
many in recent days. It seems my sister has a thought on it."

Illiana says, "First I think we should agree if we speak on
courtship... the seeking of sharing the company of another, or
Courtship, that actual journey to be wed."

Punzel admits, "I believe that many worry about courtesy in
courtship long before they know another well enough to know if
they are on a journey to be wed."

Punzel smiles ruefully, "Many here meet each other and within
days are ... behaving ... in public places ... in ways ..."

Punzel blushes slightly, "Well ... we should talk."

Cassandra says, "I thought that part of the reason for
courtship was to discover whether two were suited to be wed?"

Punzel suggests, "Mayhap I might offer some coments, based on my
discussions in recent days?"

Punzel explains, "I have spoken with many recently, and there
emerge a number of stages of courtship ..."

Punzel begins, "The earliest stage being one of primarily
friendship, accompanied mayhap by flirting ..."

Punzel continues, "Followed by a direct expression of romantic
interest ..."

Punzel continues, "Followed by exclusivity ..."
Punzel continues, "Followed by betrothal ..."
Punzel finishes, "Followed by marriage."

[Many people smile or nod.]

Punzel admits, "I am not certain, for example, where permission
to court comes in ..."

[Many people nod or look thoughtful.]

Punzel clarifies, "Whether it fits in the direct expression of
romantic interest, or the exclusivity."

Anabeth says softly, "I believe romantic interest..for it is
an intention to woo."

Punzel nods pensively, "Then permission to court does not
preclude one from accepting other suitors?"

Cassandra says bashfully, "When Ser Martin revealed to me that
his feelings for me went past friendship"

Cassandra continues, "He then asked me for permission to court"

Cassandra says, "I think he asked to be sure that I was not
considering another's suit"

Cassandra says, "and when I accepted his suit I declined
another's"

Cassandra blushes.
Cassandra says softly, "fortunatly for me."

Punzel nods concernedly, "Aye ... I get the impression that many
believe that an agreement to court implies exclusivity ...
while others do not. That is why I believe we should offer
guidelines. Folk will be hurt, otherwise."

Punzel admits, "When Martel asked permission to court me, we both
assumed exclusivity. But there may be some couples where the
two do not instinctively agree, and that may lead to pain."

Punzel smiles ruefully, "It is sometimes difficult to ask one you
are newly involved with 'So, does this mean such-and-such?'."

Illiana admits solemnly, "I think that if all realized how
_serious_ a commitment once you seek to be wed.... more would
think differently on the idea of exclusivity..."

Illiana adds, "And so, when seeking permission to court one ... you are
more or less hoping to determine if a life long bond is there or not."

Cassandra frowns, "It occured to me... a sera may be considering several
suits if she has more than one ser interested in pursuing a relationship"

Cassandra says, "But is it permissable for a ser to court several seras
at the same time?"

Punzel nods slowly, "A good question."

Morte says, "According to the articals of Chivalry, a woman may
love two men, but a man may not love two women. "

Punzel frowns slightly, "That is not what I had remembered
reading, myself."

Morte says, "I will find the passage.. "
Morte takes a cerulean book.
Morte says, "One moment, please."

Punzel quotes, "Nothing forbids one woman being loved by two men
or one man by two women. "

[Some folks gasp or raise eyebrows.]
Punzel admits, "Though that does not mean we need to ascribe to that here."

Morte says, "I am incorrect, acording to artical 31 of the
Articals of courtly love by andreas Capellanus, "

Morte quotes, "Nothing forbids one woman being loved by two men
or one man by two women. "

Morte says, "I do apologize."

Punzel shakes her head, "No apologies needed. This is an open
sharing of ideas."

Punzel raises her hands, "May I offer a few thoughts?"
[Lots of people nod.]

Punzel suggests, "Simply expressing romantic interest in someone
... this is not so formal as requesting exclusivity ..."

Punzel admits, "I think it would be most appropriate if the
actual 'asking to court' implied something more than 'Can I
hold your hand in the Refectory?'."

Punzel suggests, "Mayhap the formal asking for permission to
court might be considered the request for exclusivity ..."

Punzel shrugs slightly, "Not all would need to follow this
guideline, but it might give folk a common ground for
understanding the terms they are using."

Morte says, "As I know it, barring errors of my memory.. "

Morte says, "A suitor asks for nothing more, than consideration
of his suit."

Morte says, "A suitor may become he who courts a woman.."

Morte says, "But to consider them the same, is to have a
fundamental misunderstanding of the situation."

Punzel smiles at Morte, "This makes sense to me. Let us hear
others' thoughts."

Anabeth says thoughtfully, "So do you just have to be a member
of the opposite sex to be considered a suitor? or does some
exclamation of affection need to be made"

Morte says, "Castle Marrach, is a place in which there seems to
be no fairer sex, and as such, indeed, anyone can bring suit to
another.. And indeed, mearling asking to bring suit is sufficent... "

Morte says, "As one of the tenants of courtly love, is "Love
made public rarely endures"

Morte says, "So a private suit is acceptable."

Punzel nods slightly, "Though I disagree with that tenet, and
will not teach it."

Illiana suggests, "Perhaps then, it seems that a suitor is one
who seeks a romantic interest, and is not limited to just one
of the opposite gender. To then court, is to ask for
exclusivity. I think that is a fairly distinct guideline."

[Many folks nod.]

Cassandra says distractedly, "Then what we are saying is that
once a suitor is accepted the courtship begins? And the sera
should not consider another's suit."

Illiana shakes her head.
Punzel shakes her head, "We are saying that these are two
distinct stages ..."

Punzel explains, "Suit, the expression of romantic interest and
seeking to woo ... followed by asking permission to court,
which is more formal, and is exclusive."

[Lots of people nod and smile.]

Punzel asks, "Are there other thoughts bursting to be spoken, or
might I ask another question?"

Morte asks, "What is an acceptable period of time, betwixt
courtships before one takes a new romance as a courtier?"

Punzel nods, "An excellent question. The answer among most here
seems to be ... none. But mayhap we might discuss what might be
more ... courteous."

Robert says, "I would think the answer to that question would
depend on how a previous relationship ended..."

Robert says thoughtfully, "If my memory serves me, I seem to
recall that it was proper for at least a year to pass in the
event of death of the suitor.."

Robert says thoughtfully, "But I do not recall how much time
should elapse between the two people in question if both decide
to mutually end the suit"

Punzel blushes slightly, "And there are also the situations when
someone ... well ... breaks a relationship to be with someone else."

Morte says, "In my home, When a married woman was widowed, she
had to take but 6 months to grief, so that she might secure her family,
while an unmarried woman would be forced to wait the full year.."

Morte says, "As she was still supported by her family."
Morte says, "But a note."

Cassandra says hesitantly, "I ask this theoretically..."

Cassandra continues, "In the event of the disappearence or
lengthy absence of one of the pair who is courting ..."

Cassandra says, "When might the remaining person consider
another's suit?"

Morte says, "In my home, whereupon I base most of my knowledge..."
Morte says, "We fought many a war."
Morte says, "The Castillians.."
Morte says, "And the Eisen."
Morte says, "But, when we fought, the men went to war."

Morte says, "If you did not hear from you courteir within two
months, by letter..."

Morte says, "He was assumed dead."
Morte says, "We had a horrible attrition rate."
Morte says, "as such, death greiving as normal began."
Morte nods respectfully.
Punzel nods slowly, "Might I offer a thought?"

Punzel admits, "We are in an odd position in this place ...
confined in such small quarters, and with so many mysteries
around us ..."

Punzel admits hesitantly, "So many do ... simply vanish to their
rooms ... I believe that one month's waiting might be appropriate here."

[At this point, sera Maria and members of the Friends of the Muse
arrived to hold their meeting, and the Courtesy Circle meeting was
rather abruptly ended out of respect for the other guild.]



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